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Converting PZ Spitfire to brushless

Old 11-14-2008, 07:09 PM
  #451  
abagnalejr123
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Hey, SPITFIRETREMBLY, doesn't your spitfire weigh 38.8oz with those retracts??

Somebody help me out here!!
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:30 PM
  #452  
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Originally Posted by SpitfireTrembly View Post
All your help is greatly appreciated GRU! Let me know who makes the spackling. -Jay

DAP makes some called "Fast & Final" , Home Depot sells a brand called "Patch 'n' Paint" as I recall. I'm not near my workshop so I can't be sure, but it is the virtual weightlessness of the product on the shelf that is a dead giveaway.

I think the DAP stuff is pink but dries white, while the cheaper HD brand is white and stays that way lol

One word of warning, though - it does contain formaldehyde when uncured, so you may wanna use disposable gloves when working with it.

GRU

EDIT: yeah its Patch n Paint, looks exactly like this.
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:42 PM
  #453  
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GRU,
Okay i am off to the store! Thanks! -Jay
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:49 PM
  #454  
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SPITFIRETREMBLY, Those retracts are pretty amazing. Excellent job!!
I think you should send the info and pics to Parkzone. Seriously.

Lots of manufacturers update their products after modellers comments. You could even get some "freebies" out of it!, and get into their "tester" program. They'd send you a couple of sample models before they were released to the general public, and ask for your comments on how they could be improved.

Has to be worth a shot!!

I for one, would relish the opportunity to buy a factory supplied wing, with your retracts and CF rods already fitted. I'm sure for a manufacturer like PZ, it wouldn't be a problem to give the end-user an option on standard or upgraded.

Hey guys (EVERYONE), how about we all start lobbying Parkzone to give us a brushless retractable spitfire, with steerable rudder, based on this "first version" airframe!!??
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:07 PM
  #455  
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Originally Posted by abagnalejr123 View Post
SPITFIRETREMBLY, Those retracts are pretty amazing. Excellent job!!
I think you should send the info and pics to Parkzone. Seriously.

Lots of manufacturers update their products after modellers comments. You could even get some "freebies" out of it!, and get into their "tester" program. They'd send you a couple of sample models before they were released to the general public, and ask for your comments on how they could be improved.

Has to be worth a shot!!

I for one, would relish the opportunity to buy a factory supplied wing, with your retracts and CF rods already fitted. I'm sure for a manufacturer like PZ, it wouldn't be a problem to give the end-user an option on standard or upgraded.

Hey guys (EVERYONE), how about we all start lobbying Parkzone to give us a brushless retractable spitfire, with steerable rudder, based on this "first version" airframe!!??
Here's a link to their page, for comments:

http://www.parkzone.com/Support/Contact.aspx
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:17 PM
  #456  
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Ok, got it. Not unlimited vertical, guess I was not in the know. The T-28 motor was noticably faster than the stock on lipo but not "unlimited vertical". I will be installing my T-28 motor in the spit airframe to save some cost because as we all know it will be my last plane purchase for a while. Ha Ha Ha..... Boy I am sick on this hobby!
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:31 PM
  #457  
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Default Fast and Final

Hey GRU, I use DAP Fast & Final. It goes on white and dries white. Matter of fact, it is very difficult to tell it from the surrounding foam. I use some colored popsicle sticks to mix it and this leaks dye into the spackle making it easier to sand (color difference helps differentiate from foam). Here's a picture of it with some wings that have it.

Originally Posted by groundrushesup View Post
DAP makes some called "Fast & Final" , Home Depot sells a brand called "Patch 'n' Paint" as I recall. I'm not near my workshop so I can't be sure, but it is the virtual weightlessness of the product on the shelf that is a dead giveaway.

I think the DAP stuff is pink but dries white, while the cheaper HD brand is white and stays that way lol

One word of warning, though - it does contain formaldehyde when uncured, so you may wanna use disposable gloves when working with it.

GRU

EDIT: yeah its Patch n Paint, looks exactly like this.
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:53 PM
  #458  
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Er, if it dries white, is it on the ailerons?

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Old 11-14-2008, 11:31 PM
  #459  
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Originally Posted by abagnalejr123 View Post
Here's a link to their page, for comments:

http://www.parkzone.com/Support/Contact.aspx
I don't imagine PZ is gonna 'upgrade' their warbird line anytime soon - they are hot on the EPP airframes like the Trojan and the Corsair, which are far more durable and sophisticated out of the box.

I think the older warbirds will remain on the market as-is - simply for hack-up artists like us
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Old 11-15-2008, 03:38 AM
  #460  
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Guess what, I used it on the ailerons and sealed with silk and Minwax Polycrylic. How do you like that?

Originally Posted by abagnalejr123 View Post
Er, if it dries white, is it on the ailerons?

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Old 11-15-2008, 09:59 AM
  #461  
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Default Thanks! (and a motor question)

I'll forward the info on to the Parkzone folks for laughs and see what they say about us modifying their warbirds. I doubt they'll take much interest, but thanks for all the compliments on my install job. I got the servo all hooked up tonight and fine tuned to where they go up and down, just as i planned it!

Okay...i have a 40amp ESC, but i know no one is really thrilled with my brushless E-flite 480 1020Kv motor.

So with the added weight of the retracts (which isn't that much more weight), the carbon fiber tubes in the wings (which isn't much more weight)...what motor and prop and needed Lipo battery will push this thing to it's limits???
I know alot of folks have tried alot of different motor/prop/ and battery combos in these things. What seems to be the best combo? What combo will SCARE me to death??? LOL!

Thanks for the spackling advice GRU! That stuff worked just GREAT!
After using the spackling i was able to just run a film of tacky glue down and Not need the tape. It isn't 100% perfect, but looks pretty good!

The only problem i had was that i had bent a seam into the plastic wing film while it was folded back, whilst i had books piled on to hold the Carbon fiber tube in place, (until the epoxy dried.)

Maybe i can iron out a few of the prob's. What iron temperature did you all figure out worked best?
Well until the rest of the parts arrive i can't do much more!
So i will look forward to reading your advice on what you all figure is the best combo for performance combo's.
My best to all of you! -Jay
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:04 AM
  #462  
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Originally Posted by Voyager2lcats View Post
Guess what, I used it on the ailerons and sealed with silk and Minwax Polycrylic. How do you like that?
I like it a lot!! - I used the same stuff on my spit, to hide the 2 channels I dug out when I put the 4 CF rods in the wings. You wouldn't even know they were there!! (unless you were pulling out of a non-CF'd Vne dive!!)
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:08 AM
  #463  
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Thumbs up

Vne is "Velocity, Never Exceed", the structural limitation speed.

Tally ho!
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Old 11-15-2008, 03:42 PM
  #464  
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Smile Motor Bat Combo

You will be limited by what weight the retracts can support, and what you can afford to spend on it. What does it weigh now with everything but the motor-bat? The absolutely fastest setup might not be much fun to fly after the first one.

Originally Posted by SpitfireTrembly View Post
I'll forward the info on to the Parkzone folks for laughs and see what they say about us modifying their warbirds. I doubt they'll take much interest, but thanks for all the compliments on my install job. I got the servo all hooked up tonight and fine tuned to where they go up and down, just as i planned it!

Okay...i have a 40amp ESC, but i know no one is really thrilled with my brushless E-flite 480 1020Kv motor.

So with the added weight of the retracts (which isn't that much more weight), the carbon fiber tubes in the wings (which isn't much more weight)...what motor and prop and needed Lipo battery will push this thing to it's limits???
I know alot of folks have tried alot of different motor/prop/ and battery combos in these things. What seems to be the best combo? What combo will SCARE me to death??? LOL!

Thanks for the spackling advice GRU! That stuff worked just GREAT!
After using the spackling i was able to just run a film of tacky glue down and Not need the tape. It isn't 100% perfect, but looks pretty good!

The only problem i had was that i had bent a seam into the plastic wing film while it was folded back, whilst i had books piled on to hold the Carbon fiber tube in place, (until the epoxy dried.)

Maybe i can iron out a few of the prob's. What iron temperature did you all figure out worked best?
Well until the rest of the parts arrive i can't do much more!
So i will look forward to reading your advice on what you all figure is the best combo for performance combo's.
My best to all of you! -Jay
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Old 11-16-2008, 08:32 AM
  #465  
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Default Adding Rudder!

After testing out the retractable landing gear and making them work, i discovered i'd need a radio where i could switch a channel off once the landing gear is up, either that or have to hold down the rudder channel to one side constantly while flying! So while i wait for a 6 Ch transmitter to arrive and because i'd was bored (and knew i'd have an extra channel to use)...

I thought, "Lets cut that freaking rudder off!"
And I figured out a fairly simple way to do it. And with more of the pre colored film off my damaged wing i was able to do a clean job of it.
So NOW with a working rudder i'll be able to make my steerable tail wheel do something.

When i ordered this new fuselage, i also ordered another elevator rod and clovis (not knowing that the new fuselage came with one already. So i had all the parts i needed to do it. I'll figure out a way to mount my extra micro servo a little lower and across from the aileron servo to help balance it out and allow for the two rod clearance.
So i'll take pictures of it all and share in case any one else wants to make their Spitfire fully functional... with retracts!

Has anyone tried dumping in one of these 5000Kv Mystery brand motors into their Spit yet? Just curious.
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Old 11-16-2008, 09:34 AM
  #466  
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Originally Posted by SpitfireTrembly View Post
After testing out the retractable landing gear and making them work, i discovered i'd need a radio where i could switch a channel off once the landing gear is up, either that or have to hold down the rudder channel to one side constantly while flying! So while i wait for a 6 Ch transmitter to arrive and because i'd was bored (and knew i'd have an extra channel to use)...

I thought, "Lets cut that freaking rudder off!"
And I figured out a fairly simple way to do it. And with more of the pre colored film off my damaged wing i was able to do a clean job of it.
So NOW with a working rudder i'll be able to make my steerable tail wheel do something.

When i ordered this new fuselage, i also ordered another elevator rod and clovis (not knowing that the new fuselage came with one already. So i had all the parts i needed to do it. I'll figure out a way to mount my extra micro servo a little lower and across from the aileron servo to help balance it out and allow for the two rod clearance.
So i'll take pictures of it all and share in case any one else wants to make their Spitfire fully functional... with retracts!

Has anyone tried dumping in one of these 5000Kv Mystery brand motors into their Spit yet? Just curious.
Nice, this is quite a science project you have goin on.

LOL no, I can safely assume that no one has ever tried to put a 5000Kv motor in the spitfire. It would be waaaaay inefficient, the ESC would need to be at LEAST a 60A, and the battery you'd need to get more than 3 minutes of flight time would probably start a Semi with ease.

All kidding aside, its not just a matter of Kv. There's a whole bunch of stuff like prop size/pitch and thrust that you can work with to push this airframe to the limit.

5000kV x 11.1v = 55,500rpm / 3:1 gearbox - 18,500rpm on the prop. LOL the gearbox would melt.

Say there is a graph where , all of our variables considered (prop/motor/battery rating/ESC was taken into consideration for efficiency and top speed. With the Align 3550Kv, we are already sacrificing a good amoiunt of effciency for the speed we are getting, but that's OK, because it works well enough for our needs. Somewhere in that graph - admittedly probably on the outrunner side - there is an idea match of speed and effciency.

The 5000Kv motor, on the other hand, is off the chart. To keep the same amp draw we deal with now, ,the prop would have to be absurdly small, which works for pusher jets and wings, but not for a semi-scale warbird that needs thrust (larger diameter prop) to make its airfoil work properly.

EDIT: After some quick calculating here, to keep the amps under 40, we'd have to use a 4x4 prop.

So yeah, I've thought about it, but it ended there.

GRU

Last edited by groundrushesup; 11-16-2008 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:28 AM
  #467  
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Default OOooops!

While testing today, i must've had my test leads crossed and something went up in smoke! I'm not getting any response/arming beeps or alarms at all!!! So what all did i probably fry? Just the ESC?
Big whoops fer sure!
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:25 AM
  #468  
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I take back my last message! I Jerry-rigged my set up to run on my old Parkzone 10.8V setup and the motor/ESC/etc all chimned in and all still work.
So maybe i just shorted the Lipo?
I tested it on the charger (Align charger) and it showed green, red, green, red...
after about a half an hour all went to green.
Any advice on all that?
I looked over the battery and saw my "smoke" source was probably an 1/8th inch hole that had burned thru the plastic when i hooked it up wrong.

That was my bad. So since the electronics seem to be okay....Did i just kill my Lipo?
Seems like that's all that still doesn't work.

But i am kinda confused that the charger says it's all good with the Lipo Battery!

weirdness.
-Jay
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:04 PM
  #469  
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Originally Posted by groundrushesup View Post
Again its the lack of a rudder that makes it a little problematic. Wheels are nice but you cannot steer them with ailerons.
These planes fly better the lighter they are, remember adding all this weight will take some of the fun of flying out of the plane. i did enjoy taking off and landing from a parking lot for a little while, but eventually it loses it's luster.

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Old 11-17-2008, 02:34 PM
  #470  
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DetroiHawk,
Nice photos.
Cool custom motor mount from what I could see. What motor you running on it?
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:31 PM
  #471  
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In that picture i added a lot of weight to that plane, mine came in @ 32oz and IMO that was almost too much, BUT with the Hacker A30-12L with a 9x9 prop i put on it, i had over 50oz of thrust. The plane took off with ease, but it had a much higher stall rate which ment a bigger landing strip. Taking off was easy, but landing this bird was not as much fun with the little parking lot i was working with at the time.

http://media.putfile.com/fw190

this was my maiden flight with that setup, i take off and do one lap trimming the plane out, i play around with the stall speed, then i land. This was my second airplane i ever bought and it started out like this:

http://media.putfile.com/fw190-brushless

after logging a month on a stryker B i went out and bought a DX6 the FW190 airframe and went to town. But in hind sight the more weight i added to it, the less fun it became to fly IMO.


For next season i plane to take the FW airframe and put something cheap in it and get it back up in the air; however as light as i can make it.



the motor mount i cut out on my bandsaw from a 2x4, the hollow box was very strong and actually light weight, when i first flew this plane it was 2 oz lighter then the stock brushed version.
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Old 11-18-2008, 12:58 PM
  #472  
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Very Nice. I may have to add that bird to my PKZ collection of Spitfire, Mustang and Corsair!
Living in Michigan, you must be enjoying the snow today. Do much flying in this cold? 2 weeks ago it was nearly 70!!
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Old 11-18-2008, 10:52 PM
  #473  
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The planes fly nice in the cold weather, but the fingers get cold. I don't fly very often in the winter and have hardly at all this year, but atleast i am busy making $$$ in michigan; while everyone else is going broke. They are building a school next to my house and i bet by mid summer next year i am going to have the most amazing runway right next to my house. lol
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:02 AM
  #474  
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Default Rudder Install on the Spitfire

Here are some photos of how i added rudder to my Spitfire, as well as some photos of other modifications i had to make.

Photos 1 and 2 show the e-flite motor mount that you might see on Ebay.
Well it's about 1/2 an inch too short in my opinion. So i cut 4 spacers (1/2" each long) from the left over Carbon Fiber arrow shaft that i used for my wing spar install. So that was an easy fix, lightweight and clean looking.

Photo 3 shows where i installed the micro servo to the lower airframe. I used a piece of tough plastic bent to fit around the servo and used screws to mount it snug against the frame. I also used epoxy to make sure it stays in place. I had to cut the stock parkzone push rod down about and inch to fit. I placed the servo here because the push rod was naturally pointing to this point. But to keep the rod from flexing at all i took a piece of foam core and epoxied it in place with a hole just big enough for the pushrod to go through.

Photos 4 and 5 show the rudder and how i used the colored film off my damaged wing to cover up any visible styrofoam. The hinges are covered with more wing film and the hinges itself are nothing more than thin cardboard (the thickness used for notebook covers) I creased them so they'll bend easily. The wing film might have been tough enough to use for the hinge points (since that's all the ailerons are held on with), but i figured the cardboard would add a little structure. And the photo shows where i placed the pushrod mount and my tailwheel.

Photos 6 and 7 show the tail and how i used more of the film to clean it up and cover the areas where the styrofoam were visible after you cut the rudder off.

Photo 8 shows it all epoxied back together with the pushrod installed and ready to go.

Make sure you use a brand new x-acto blade before you cut into your plane.

Let me know if any other photos would help.
-Jay
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Last edited by SpitfireTrembly; 11-20-2008 at 06:12 AM. Reason: none
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:04 AM
  #475  
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Thumbs up

That's probably the best, and most professional, lot of upgrades I've seen on this bird!!

Well done S.T. !!

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