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Mig 21 (Freewing 80mm)

Old 04-10-2016, 05:10 PM
  #1  
Konrad
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Default Mig 21 (Freewing 80mm)

WOW, Freewing is in production of another 6cell 80mm class foamie jet a Mig 21!

I love seeing some more birds from the cold war era of the "Evil Empire".

I just ordered an Alfa 60mm Mig 21 to satisfy my fix for something to replace my Alfa Mig 15.

This new larger Mig 21 (80mm fan) will look good in an aggressor livery sitting next to the Freewing F-5.

I might have to get another Mirage 2000 and bash it into a Mirage III and have my own reenactment of the Sinai wars.

I look forward to seeing more details about the landing gear. Would love to see and ankled bogie (not going to happen in a foamy). Also would like to use a Jetfan 80mm unit with a Neu motor on 8 cell. This works very well in my Freewing Mirage 2000. 6 cells really is on the low end of practical for the 80mm to 90mm jet.

The jet OEMs really are shooting themselves in the foot trying to market these larger jets as 6 cell. It is reminiscent of the 3 cell 2200mAh marketing target we see in the rest of the small electric sport market. There are a lot of 4 cell 2200 war birds that really need to be upgraded to 5 to 6 cell.

Is the cost of a HV ESC and a 8cell charger really that prohibitive to warrant crippling these 80+mm jets to 6 cells?

All the best,
Konrad

Last edited by Konrad; 04-10-2016 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:44 PM
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Thanks for the heads up on the new 'Fishbed'. It's a favourite of mine. I while ago i did a plan for a freeflight version using micro rocket power so it would be interesting to try a bigger version some day.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:53 PM
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Freewing and Motion are hitting it out of the park with the 80 and 90mm series of edfs. The best F14,F15,F16 on top of the T45,F5,F86,Mirage 2000, and A6 Intruder introduced earlier.

I understand they will bring out 2 more this year. Rumors abound. I'm hearing strong signals that one will be a twin 80mm A-10 which would make sense since they could easily adapt the same power package they have in the Tomcat. Without the complex swing wing of the F-14, I'd expect the A-10 would also have a lower price point. Just need a smoking Gatling gun- whew !

Looks like they are going for low complexity. The Mig looks simple.

The other one I'm hearing drumbeats about is a 90mm A-4 Skyhawk. The "Scooter" could be offered in both gray and Blue Angel livery. Oh my!

Count me in on both of these birds if they happen.

The Fishbed also looks big for an 80 mm but that was just my first impression. She's long and slender. I'll watch this one as the early adapters wring her out.

I guess it's only money - lol

To make matters worse, they introduce the new brand Flightline which is a collaboration between Freewing and Motonrc. A new series of great looking warbirds including the P-38, FW-190, Sea fury, Spitfire and more.

Oh dear! They're killing me. lol

Hawk
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:00 PM
  #4  
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Freewing and Motion are hitting it out of the park with the 80 and 90mm series of edfs. The best F14,F15,F16 on top of the T45,F5,F86,Mirage 2000, and A6 Intruder introduced earlier.

I understand they will bring out 2 more this year. Rumors abound. I'm hearing strong signals that one will be a twin 80mm A-10 which would make sense since they could easily adapt the same power package they have in the Tomcat. Without the complex swing wing of the F-14, I'd expect the A-10 would also have a lower price point. Just need a smoking Gatling gun- whew !

Looks like they are going for low complexity. The Mig looks simple.

The other one I'm hearing drumbeats about is a 90mm A-4 Skyhawk. The "Scooter" could be offered in both gray and Blue Angel livery. Oh my!

Count me in on both of these birds if they happen.

The Fishbed also looks big for an 80 mm but that was just my first impression. She's long and slender. I'll watch this one as the early adapters wring her out.

I guess it's only money - lol

To make matters worse, they introduce the new brand Flightline which is a collaboration between Freewing and Motonrc. A new series of great looking warbirds including the P-38, FW-190, Sea fury, Spitfire and more.

Oh dear! They're killing me. lol

Hawk
Don't know about being big for a 80mm fan. I know that the Freewing F-5 is weight sensitive. I fly her on 6000 mAh 6 cells. And I can tell you she flies noticeable better on 4200 mAh cells . The Mirage flies well on the 6000 mAh cells 6 cell battery. I can tell you she flies better on 8 cell 4200 mAh cells. Depending on the Kv of the motor one gets good power, duration and low landing speeds (weight reduction).

It looks to my eyes that the Mig 21 will fly on the wing like the Mirage 2000 rather than rely on the fuselage for lift, much like the F-5.

All the best,
Konrad
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:25 PM
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Really Flightline/ Freewing @Motonrc are coming out with a FW-190. I saw where Freewing had discontinued the FW 190, I had assumed it was as a result of poor sales and its small size (maybe why it had poor sales). If it comes to fruition I hope it is a 9D Dara or a TA 152.

Back to the 80mm jets. What do you guys think about the Freewing fan? Too my way of thinking the rotor load is a bit too high with the 12 blades for any real kind of performance and battery life. I like the JetFan 80mm rotor good sound, good power/speed, and good battery life. Have you guys had good luck with the cut down 90mm Wemotec? The knock on the Jetfan 80mm rotor is it is a bit too heavy.
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:31 PM
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I like the FW 80mm setup though I do completely agree that the high blade count will never equal the efficiency of a low blade count fan given the same kv motor. Amp eaters to say the least. Strictly for sound effect which is pretty cool IMO. Closest thing to a wet turbine. I'll take cheap thrills. LOL

Don't have a Jetfan or an inrunner for that matter but on my wish list. Just hate to spend as much for a high performance power setup as I do for the entire PNP.

BTW, I don't know about you but this Mig-21 is growing on me. Love what I'm seeing over on RCG. Ouch ! There goes my wallet again !

Hawk
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:42 PM
  #7  
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All my valued jets (not foam) use in runners as I want the thermal (power in vs power out) efficiency. The FanJet and WeMoTec fans are good sounders.

Love the Migs like I said I had to buy the Alfa for my Mig 21 fix.

RCGoofs? We are here at Wattflier. If you want to get the info from the horse's mouth (it took a lot of control not to reference the other end), I think the USA importer has a lot on his forum.

All the best,
Konrad
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:36 PM
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Love what Motion and Freewing are doing with the edf's as well as the new Flighlinerc brand of Warbirds.

Awaiting pre-order announcement on the Mig-21

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Old 04-12-2016, 08:55 PM
  #9  
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That's right MotionRC is the North American importer and Hobby Squawk is the form.

All the best,
Konrad.
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Old 04-13-2016, 04:49 AM
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I was privileged to see this new Mig-21 in person on Saturday at the official public unveiling at Apollo field in LA. It is larger overall than the F-5 which uses the same setup (80mm 12bl 6S outrunner), but it seemed lighter and faster with better vertical performance. And with the inrunner it is even better.

Yes, the 12-blade system is not as efficient as others with less blades, but oh man that sound! I love the way my A-6 and F-5 sound, and I can't wait to get my hands on this new Mig!
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:13 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
I was privileged to see this new Mig-21 in person on Saturday at the official public unveiling at Apollo field in LA. It is larger overall than the F-5 which uses the same setup (80mm 12bl 6S outrunner), but it seemed lighter and faster with better vertical performance. And with the inrunner it is even better.

Yes, the 12-blade system is not as efficient as others with less blades, but oh man that sound! I love the way my A-6 and F-5 sound, and I can't wait to get my hands on this new Mig!
Privilege, isn't that pushing it a bit much for a foam toy? After all this isn't the importer's forum, "Hobby Squawk".

The 12 blade thing yes they sound better that the 5 to 7 bladed rotors of old. But at a very high cost in performance. But the 9 bladed rotors like the Jetfan and WeMoTec seem to sound as good (in ducts at least).It isn't just the blade count, but mainly that the rotor is placed further ahead of the stators.
http://www.effluxrc.com/Jetfan-80mm-...-JF-80-RTR.htm

I too have a F-5 with the Freewing 12 bladed rotor in front of Freewing's inrunner. Not happy with the vertical and current draw, heck even the speed is a bit pedestrian.

I have a Freewing Mirage 2000 with Freewing housing, Rotorfan 9 bladed impeller, and Neu 1850 Kv inrunner. http://neumotors.cartloom.com/shop/item/25324
It is a far better power set up. I attribute a lot of this performance to drag improvements to the larger wing of the Mirage not working at such draggy Coefficients of lift. Hate the Freewing proprietary rotor mounting system as it makes interchangeability an issue!

The Mig 21 looks like it should fly better than the F-5!

All the best,
Konrad

Last edited by Konrad; 04-13-2016 at 08:34 PM. Reason: a "performance" to read "I attribute a lot of this performance to drag improvement.."
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:44 AM
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While I agree that there are better systems out there than Freewing's stock 12b fan, I don't think it equates to a "very high" cost in performance. My F-5 flies just fine with the stock outrunner and seems to have plenty of performance. Sure it can go much faster with a different power system (and Gary at effluxrc has some really nice stuff), but for me it goes fast enough. I have other planes that are a blur going by if I want all out speed.

And if you're not happy with stock, you can get the Kit+ version instead and drop in your own power system to suit your taste. But I don't think the stock systems can be totally dismissed out of hand.

I saw the Mig-21 fly on Saturday. It has better performance than the F-5 (due to a cleaner intake and exhaust), so I will be totally happy with the stock system.
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Old 04-13-2016, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
While I agree that there are better systems out there than Freewing's stock 12b fan, I don't think it equates to a "very high" cost in performance. My F-5 flies just fine with the stock outrunner and seems to have plenty of performance. Sure it can go much faster with a different power system (and Gary at effluxrc has some really nice stuff), but for me it goes fast enough. I have other planes that are a blur going by if I want all out speed.

And if you're not happy with stock, you can get the Kit+ version instead and drop in your own power system to suit your taste. But I don't think the stock systems can be totally dismissed out of hand.

I saw the Mig-21 fly on Saturday. It has better performance than the F-5 (due to a cleaner intake and exhaust), so I will be totally happy with the stock system.
Are you saying the thrust from the Mig 21 is higher than that of the F-5 and that this is why the Mig's airframe shows better performance? This maybe so, but I suspect the wings are the real reason the Mig has superior performance over the F-5 assuming both have the same power system installed.

My point of high cost in performance is a reference to current draw. The ability of the fan to convert power (amps x volts) into usable thrust at speed. As to speed we agree the Freewing 80mm, F-5 Mirage 2000 are "adequate" for a foam jet, with thick slow wings.

If Freewing had stuck to the industry standard motor shafts the ability to custom fit ones power components would have been much more cost effective. Yes, the stock system will fly the F-5 even at 6K altitude of the Denver area fields I often fly at. But at far too high a current draw for what performance the airframe exhibits!

All the best,
Konrad

Last edited by Konrad; 04-13-2016 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 04-13-2016, 04:36 PM
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One benefit the Mig has over the F-5 is that the Mig has a single clean exhaust duct, whereas the F-5 has a bifurcated duct. The intake channel on the Mig is also pretty much straight in line with the fan rather than dual side intakes like on the F-5. I believe that both of these factors improve the performance, even using the same power system.

Case in point. I have the A-6 which also has the same power system. The bifurcation of the exhaust on it is very wide as the exhaust nozzles are on the sides of the fuse behind the wing root, versus side by side at the tail like on the F-5. The F-5 is much faster than the A-6 because of this, among other factors. But the A-6 flies scale, which I like.

Again, I agree with you that the high blade count reduces performance and draws higher amps, but I don't agree that the cost is "very high" as you state. Both my A-6 and F-5 fly scale, which is what I prefer. And I also stated that if someone does not like the stock system provided, there are other alternatives as you have suggested.

As you have pointed out, this is a foam toy. I am satisfied with the performance I get stock. Those who are not satisfied will mod as they see fit. That's the beauty of this hobby, there is almost no limit to what you can do with the kits that are offered these days.
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Old 04-13-2016, 04:49 PM
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Pat,

100% agree. If all I ever wanted was raw speed, I build a pulse jet - LOL Heck, my Roc Hobby Voodoo on 5S and a square prop will do 100.

I'm all in on the Mig-21. Not too complex, affordable, short grass field friendly. Any idea as to the release date?

I've been kind of holding out for a twin 80mm A-10 or even a 90mm A-4 Skyhawk but I'm just hoping. Probably wait till the cows come home before I see either of those two dream planes.

Hawk
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Old 04-13-2016, 05:19 PM
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The latest I've seen on the Mig-21 is 4-6 weeks for pre-order to begin, with delivery in early summer. So I'm thinking late June/early July for them to arrive. I will be pre-ordering to ensure I get one from the first batch.

As for all-out speed, I have my Phase 3 F-16 hopped up on 4S. I think I'm on my 5th or 6th one now, and I just bought two more kits when they went on sale for $40 again.
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Old 04-13-2016, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Pat,

100% agree. If all I ever wanted was raw speed, I build a pulse jet - LOL Heck, my Roc Hobby Voodoo on 5S and a square prop will do 100.

I'm all in on the Mig-21. Not too complex, affordable, short grass field friendly. Any idea as to the release date?

I've been kind of holding out for a twin 80mm A-10 or even a 90mm A-4 Skyhawk but I'm just hoping. Probably wait till the cows come home before I see either of those two dream planes.

Hawk
Wow, speed is not the criteria I'm measuring for performance. We all agree that the thick foam wings are not conducive to speed. These models are squarely in the sub 100 mph range. Performance as I see it is "power in" vs 'power out". Most would think of this as climb and or run time for any given amount of energy. And by that measure the Freewing 12 bladed fan is a disaster.

My ROC 980mm P-40 and p-47 will do 110 mph straight and level and still fly for 4 minutes on 4 cells. For all out speed I have FAI F3D and F5D ships, your point? We are talking "Foam EDF" and the power systems suitable for them.

All the best,
Konrad
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Old 04-13-2016, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
...

As for all-out speed, I have my Phase 3 F-16 hopped up on 4S. I think I'm on my 5th or 6th one now, and I just bought two more kits when they went on sale for $40 again.
Who is selling them?

All the best,
Konrad
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:07 PM
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Konrad,

Once again I agree the Freewing 12b setup is not the "best" system out there. But, I disagree with your comment that it is a "disaster". It flies my jets just fine.

The Phase 3 EF-16 is still sold by Hobby People:

http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...r-fan-esc.html

I always wait until they go on sale for $40 or less to get more. Last month they had them for $39.99, and I got two of them with free shipping.
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
Konrad,

Once again I agree the Freewing 12b setup is not the "best" system out there. But, I disagree with your comment that it is a "disaster". It flies my jets just fine.

The Phase 3 EF-16 is still sold by Hobby People:

http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...r-fan-esc.html

I always wait until they go on sale for $40 or less to get more. Last month they had them for $39.99, and I got two of them with free shipping.
We will have to agree to disagree on that topic. BTW is the Freewing marketed 12 blade fan of their own engineering? My harping on the efficiency issue (disaster) is that with other impeller/rotor and stator configuration we the modeler get good sound and good power from other configuration. I point to the 80mm Jetfan and cut down WeMoTec rotors and fan units.

While the Freewing did does address that horrible howl we got from EDFs it went too far in the direction of noise suppression. The lower blade count rotor placed a bit further away from the stator give as good a noise sound (a subjective value) and gets us back much of the performance we got as a thrust generator. If one really has issues with noise, inlet noise suppression could be incorporated into models (might not be practical in the smaller ones).

Just because the model comes with "crap" (my term) doesn't mean we should tolerate it from the OEM or the importer, I don't! That is why my models are rarely stock. But I let the importer, and anybody else that will listen, know what I think of a product and what I think can be done to improve it. Not only what I think can be done but how I addressed the short comings with the limited means available to me as a modeler.

As to the subject of the 12 bladed fan is there a reason Freewing can't improve the fan/impeller stator interference.

The OEM will not improve things unless we the consumer demand change. This is why I don't like non-critical reviews and mutual admiration posts. Piss off the vendor, force him to make chances if he want's your money. In this case if I want pleasant sounds at the cost of high wattage I'll listen to the hair bands of the 70's

Hobby People; thanks
Was I too late? I see that the cost is over $60

All the best,
Konrad
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by crxmanpat View Post
Konrad,

Once again I agree the Freewing 12b setup is not the "best" system out there. But, I disagree with your comment that it is a "disaster". It flies my jets just fine.

The Phase 3 EF-16 is still sold by Hobby People:

http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...r-fan-esc.html

I always wait until they go on sale for $40 or less to get more. Last month they had them for $39.99, and I got two of them with free shipping.
Have two of them. I too fly them on 4S. Great flying planes. One our club members retrofitted his with a Mercury edf setup. Holey moley !
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:06 PM
  #22  
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Not sure if the Freewing 12bl units are their design, or if they "borrowed" it from someone else, like Haoye (or however it's spelled). All I know is this is the setup that's been in all of their 80mm offerings since they release the F-86 and Mirage. I have it in my A-6 and F-5.

Regarding the F-16, $59.99 is Hobby People's "normal" price for the kit. I am subscribed to their newsletter (which seems to come almost every day ), and whenever I'm in the market for more kits I check to see if they have gone on sale. They will reduce the price from time to time, I'm assuming when stock starts backing up again, but I always wait until they lower them to at least $40 before buying more.
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Old 11-14-2016, 12:50 AM
  #23  
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Well, this thread went real quiet. Maybe everyone wondered over to RCG or HS.

Anyway, I am loving my MIG. It is reasonably fast for a plane it's size. I know a lower blade count is more efficient and faster, but the 12 blade fan sounds too good to give up and it also gives a little better torque for nice big loops.

I took the liberty of repainting mine into the mid 1960s Soviet Air Force aerobatics team colors. It is a lot easier for my old eyes to see it, and I just think it is a neat looking scheme.

I only have five flights on it so far. It likes long approaches and a high alpha attitude for landing. However, it is truly an attention getter at the club.

Jim







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Old 11-14-2016, 04:10 AM
  #24  
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Yeah, it gets kind of tedious posting the same stuff in so many forums. I too am loving my Mig, and it is quickly becoming my favorite EDF. Got 3 more flights on it on Saturday, and even put on a little airshow for a family with a bunch of kids that came out to watch us fly.



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Old 11-14-2016, 02:48 PM
  #25  
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I like that camo. Good work.
I copied your panel line trick with the Sharpie. You can't tell from more than a couple of feet, it's just enough to make them stand out on the flight line.
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