pizzano

Sorry for the confusion.......:

"SAFE or equal stabilization stuff coming out for planes now...."

In general terms, related to the popular and most identifiable "term" related to the stabilization sytems out threre..............get the drift...?

At least my spelling and grammar are worthy of your oversight......

Thanks.....!

JetPlaneFlyer

AS3X and SAFE are fundamentally different and not at all 'equal'.

SAFE (and similar) has a 'self righting' capability meaning that the model automatically recovers instantly into straight and level flight when you release the sticks. This is obviously ideal for beginners but to be honest a pain in the neck for experienced flyers.

AS3X (and similar) only prevents the model from uncommanded deviations from heading, like if hit by a wind gust. They dont have any 'self righting' ability so when you release the sticks the model will just continue on it's heading. If that heading was straight down into the deck then AS3X wont help it recover. This is better for more advanced flyers.

pizzano

"AS3X and SAFE are fundamentally different and not at all 'equal".

Geez...the reference is implied related to STABILIZATION........!

Want to get real specfic...let's get anal........have at it: as published, simple examples for the interested show:

http://www.e-fliterc.com/Articles/Ar...ArticleID=2348

http://www.e-fliterc.com/Safe/

Not sure how this provides any "value" to the original discussion.......but one will notice, both STABALIZATION" aspects provide recovery and handling and added safety to the flying experience......regardless of the craft (plank or multi rotor).......

One will also notice the STABILIZATION term (aspect) relates to various E-Flite/Spektrum/Horizon models......copyright/patented pending tool to help with "teaching" one to fly RC........both terms used freely, even by the manufacture, to refer to STABILZATION........."fundamentally" different in advanced designed technology but both provide "fundamental" STABLIZATION aspects and are often combined in many E-Flight craft.....and very "equal" in performance "fundamentally" (when related to brand name), comparing apples to apples..........

To get all knit-picky as to how one expresses terms (for conventional conversation purposes related to STABIZATION tools), The respones are down right hilarious............. and really exposes one's undesirable trait (need) to "set the record straight - get it right" menality, within the context of a general conversation, NOT bent on TECHNICAL dissertation, explanation or definition............

JetPlaneFlyer

Sorry to rattle your cage, my post was purely intended to highlight the fundamental difference between the two systems. Basically in a nutshell one 'self levels' the other doesn't, this is a very big difference. There target audience is also very different, SAFE being aimed squarely at beginners and AS3X being suitable for all.

Anyone who has flown a model with a 'SAFE' type self leveling system would immediately recognise that in flight it behaves nothing like AS3X or any other similar system. So IMHO there is nothing 'anal' in pointing out the differences.

xmech2k

+1. By whatever name, there is a huge difference between systems that do what SAFE does, and what AS3X does, and there are some that do both, more, less, etc. I respect that people have many different opinions. I listen to them and try to learn. It's the people with closed minds that dismiss and laugh at others that I feel sorry for.

JetPlaneFlyer

Yeah, good point on systems that do both, in fact all systems that have a 'SAFE like' self leveling feature will also have a 'AS3X like' rate gyro capability too. A couple of other example apart from the Spektrum SAFE receiver that I can think of are the FY-30A or the Eagle Tree Guardian, these have a very similar switchable self leveling capability. They preceded SAFE by quite some time.

Some other systems though don't have it, for instance standard 'AS3X' receivers or something like the Orange flight stabilisers. They only have the rate gyro functionality, not self leveling capability.

pattern14

I also forgot to mention I have since taught 4 local youngsters to fly using my Komet and a similar scratchbuilt clone. I ended up selling the scratchbuilt flying wing pusher to one of them who still flies it today. Interestingly enough, he bought a 4 channel, high wing "trainer" type balsa plane, which he promptly wrecked trying to emulate the same sort of flying. Makes me wonder.....

Vulcaneer

Maybe not the best technique. But it worked for me, so far. And with todays gyro systems (AS3X) and SAFE/WISE systems, self learning is certainly within the realm of possibility. Certainly an instructor is best. But if none is available, you can learn to fly yourself. It is important to make a good first choice for a learners/trainer plane. My choice was the HobbyZone Super Cub 3 channel.

My only previous RC experience is with RC Sailboats. So the joy sticks were somewhat familiar. And being older, I have learned the life lesson of patience.

Maidened my Hobby Zone Super Cub this past weekend. First time ever flying an RC plane of any type. Started with baby steps. Taxiing for one battery. on my 200 foot long paved curvy driveway. Helps to learn left/right turning while coming and going. Then taking off on pavement (parking lot at the local High School) and flying for maybe 50 feet at (10 foot altitude) and soft landing in nice soft grass. All the while in SAFE beginner mode, with a death grip on the panic button. Did that about 20 times. Then did it about 20 more times without the panic button. Actually all went pretty well. Sure...a few endo's in the grass. But good glide slopes both up and down and touch downs in the grass. A lot of walking (150' at a time) to go pick up the plane and bring it back to do it again.

Gave it a rest for about half hour. New Battery...Then did all those things again for 5 times each. Then gradually extended the time in the air and altitude and distance. Once I felt I had a "feel" for what I was doing, I decided to actually try flying.

A rather nice take off (always INTO the wind). Up to about 75 - 100 feet. Back off the throttle to level it off. Set the elevator trim. About 400 feet out. Left turn with a little up elevator. "Hey...What do you know? It works!" Another left turn. "Wow! this is cool." back the other way about 600 feet. Keep the altitude up. I know I should try to land it...But since, I got it up there, I should keep flying a bit...before I waste the plane on a bad landing. So flew for about 4 more minutes. About 20 laps around up wind in front of me. More throttle...less throttle...more/less elevator...see what the panic button does... (although didn't need it yet)...check glide slopes with and without the panic button. All of this stuff I learned on the Inter-web.

OK...time to see if I can land it. Make a slow and low fly by, into the wind. OK got my pattern planned out. Thumbs are shaking. Lets go around for the final approach. Finger covering the panic button...but also ready to power up if an abort is needed. Decided to not use the panic button until I needed it. My panic button test showed my that it leveled the glide slope too much. So hit the down elevator to get it to come down low enough to the ground. Going real slow. Five feet up and in the right location, I hit the panic button and cut the throttle Nearly off, to let the panic button teach me how a landing is to be done. Perfect landing and roll out on the baseball diamond. Just amazing.

So it's like when I shot my hole in one. I immediately had to tee up another ball to see if I could do it again. That was not successful. But I decided to take the SC up again, with a new battery. A couple laps around, again. And another good landing. This time with no panic button. And I tried to make my landings look like "panic button" landings. Several more ups and downs, and all arounds. No crashes. Took her home in one piece. A little dirty from the clay on the baseball diamond.

All in all about 20 flights over the weekend. Gave up the baseball diamond for the astro turf football complex at the high school. The biggest problem was the one time when I landed with the (very light) wind and the plane rolled out (a very log way) into a fence post. Stupid, I know...but the wind was negligible (or so I thought). Shattered the cowling. But I think those things are supposed to break, so to protect the rest of the plane. Kinda like a "crumple zone" on a car. So I taped it up. Wont replace it yet, cause I'll probably bang it up a few more times in the next few days.

So that is my story. I am not a good pilot. A rank beginner, in the first degree. But that is a REALLY GOOD plane. And it makes the guy with the thumbs look pretty good. While I have had quite a few very successful flights, I still do NOT consider myself to be a pilot. Maybe a STUDENT pilot. But still an awful lot to learn. Most important lessons I learned today is keep the plane close. High...but close in. And never take your eye off the plane to look at your watch. Things happen fast.

I do need to acknowledge those that helped me with their posts about learning to fly, and videos on You Tube. And the time spent on the freebee simulators. All that gave me the baby step progression to help me conjure up the nerve to try this un-assisted. Thank you all.

The point is that learning to fly can be somewhat different today than it was a few years ago. While some age old principles are still very valid. Some of todays advancements make self learning a reality.

Vulcaneer

Here is my 'beginners take" on this subject.

As nice as it is to have SAFE...without AS3X stabilization, it would be impossible for a newbee to fly one of these new super light 15 -26oz (714gm) foamies in even the lightest of winds. And if you cannot get the plane up to any appreciable altitude, then SAFE cannot be utilized. Such light weight planes cannot fly with any wind...without AS3X. A beginner pilot is nowhere near ready to make the corrections needed for these super light foamies. That is why AS3X is needed.

SAFE cannot help a beginner to avoid all crashes. But AS3X stabilization certainly helps you get off the ground with wind control.

If I had a choice of having AS3X stabilization, or SAFE, my choice would easily be to choose AS3X. Fortunately, we can get both, at very affordable entry level cost.

Finally, I do fly most generally in beginner mode. Started of at low rates. Then high rates. But when the wind would not allow the plane to turn as needed, I was forced to shift into "intermediate" mode to get it to turn tight enough. The change was scary fast. But it forced me into the basics. UP ELEVATOR....because the nose dropped really quickly. I could have easily switched back to beginner mode. But NO...I decided to stay in intermediate...but I did select the low rates on the TX. That made for a nice step up from beginner to intermediate mode.

So here is how I think a new pilot needs to use SAFE for progression to more advanced flying.

1- Beginner....Low rate
2- Beginner....High rate
3- Intermediate...low rate
4- Intermediate...high rate
5- Expert... low rate
6- Expert...high rate

Go to the next higher step only after very comfortable with current step. If you go up a step and get into trouble...that is what the panic button can help with.

I found it best for when first learning, to start off with this finger/thumb position. Starting off like this trains you to keep your fingers in place for quick action. And less likely to forget where the panic button is when you need it quickly. Also easy to switch back quickly from a higher to lower mode, if you need to.

Here are the finger positions I recommend. Left index finger on (0-1-2) mode button. Left middle finger on panic button. Left thumb on left joystick. The right thumb in the traditional position on the right joystick.

My 2 cents worth.

Rabbitcreekok

Thanks for the great posts, Vulcaneer. I hope they will help others learn to fly. It shows that it can be done if it is done carefully, not cowboy.

scottnp

I'm a 76 year old fart with a learning curve of -1, I think. I bought 2 NEW Tx/rx sets and planes from ebay and now having difficulty programming(?) both. One is a Futaba 8 and the other is a Spektrum DX7. When they are bound/linked with their respective rx's the tx will operate all servos except the throttles. However, with the Futaba I was able to get a throttle (both planes) working by plugging in the battery, unplugging the throttle servo until it started beeping and then plugging it back in and turning on the tx, but when I shut down and unplug the battery and start over I have to repeat the above sequence. With the Spektrum I can get all the servos working except the throttle but all works when plugged into my simulation program on my pc. Really getting frustrated but still hanging in there. Any help would be appreciated but please realize you're dealing with a really old fart new to the hobby and you need to explain in terms a two year would understand. See? I told you, now I see I'm in the wrong forum, sorry

Vulcaneer

Let's start with the basics...

Forgive me....but...are you switching on your TX before you plug in your battery to the RX? And when you shut down...Do you make sure to unplug the RX BEFORE you switch off the TX? The TX is always activated while the RX operates. At no time should the RX be active with no signal from the TX.

This is the prescribed sequence.

Otherwise, let me ask...stupid, I know...are you operating these systems in an interference free environment? Is there any systems that could be interfering? WiFi, power lines, Microwaves, etc?

Try taking your planes to a vacant location and re-binding your TX's and RX's. See if that could make a difference?...Just a guess.

Beyond that...It might be helpful if you can tell us what planes you have for each RX, TX. And provide the specific servo and receiver brand and part number for each plane. Did you by your plane RTF, BNF, PNP, kit, or scratch built?

solentlife

There are two usual answers ......... one by Vulcaneer ..... Switching on Rx first can lead to strange effects.

The other more common one is that throttle is not calibrated to Tx ... and often especially with Futaba reversed. This means it cannot initialise ...

So lets take one by one - and it basically applies to both systems.

a) Switch on Tx.
b) Put Throttle stick all way UP.
c) Power up Model and listen for beeps.
d) When you hear the first single Beep ... IMMEDIATELY without delay bring throttle back to Zero Idle.
e) You should now hear a series of beeps indicating all is ok.
f) Power off Model Rx
g) Power of Tx.

Now if c and d do not happen. Power down BOTH Tx and Rx. Now switch on Tx and REVERSE the Throttle.... that's in the programming menu. Power of Tx.

Now go back to the list above and try again.

Now here comes the crappy bit ! Some ESC's don't initialise because Trim is out of whack. So when you do b ... put Trim all way UP ... then when you do d .. bring trim back to centre or full down.

You may have to try more than once with the Trim at different settings .. but that should work.

Now just do it for the other set-up.

I will ask one question though ..... Are you making sure that the Futaba radio is set to the correct model ? Your radio may have different programming in each memory slot. The Spektrum will not work servos if wrong memory slot.

Nigel

Vulcaneer

I will add to Nigels post.

Before messing with throttle, remove your prop...for safety reasons.

The one thing that is hard for me to understand is that the same problem exists for two different planes with two different brands of TX/RX combinations. For that reason, I suspect a more "environmental" problem. Or it could be a set up issue, in that both planes were set up incorrectly...yet consistantly in both cases.

Could be something as basic as making sure the throttle is connected to the correct (THR) plug location on the RX's.

I know my 69 year old eyes cannot read the tiny labels on the tiny RX's. I keep one of those little LED lit magnifying glasses in my toolbox.

scottnp

Thanks for the responses, I finally muddle through the programming of the Futaba, got it working and even got the AR6100e receiver working with the Spektrum tx. Still having problems binding with the AR6200 rx, light flashes when I plug the battery in, light flashes when I turn on the tx with the BIND button depressed the light blinks then goes out, the tx returns to the main screen but no light on the rx. Suspect the rx maybe bad or I may need to mess with the tx programming again. I do have wireless wifi in my house but my Apprentice RTF trainer worked perfect until the battery went South, dealer said to bring it back and he'll either re-fiddle with the battery or replace it. After running the Apprentice's prop over my foot I left the props off my 2 PNP planes (Dynam Spitfire and Grand Cruiser). Last stupid question, when I change rx's do I need to change the model in my tx's memory?

Vulcaneer

Not sure of the Futaba. But with the Spektrum, it is important how you disconnect after binding. Am not sure of the sequence right now, but follow the instructions in the book that it came with.

I think it is after binding, switch off TX, remove the bind plug then disconnect battery. But could be the other way around.

fhhuber

Spektrum bind plug after binding:

Remove power from the RX before turning off the TX.

There are variations on what to do about the bind plug... some you pull it before removing power from the RX, Some after and some it depends on what failsafe settings you want to make. Depends on the RX (I have most of them and its confusing)
You can ALWAYS leave the plug in until power is removed from the RX and it will work. It just might not give the failsafe settings you want.

If you forget and leave the bind plug in when you power the RX system again, then you have to bind again.

Always ensure the RX system (and motor) don't have power before turning off the TX.

xmech2k

Scottnp, while a lot of information has been sent your way, I thought a little explanation on the motor not running might help. Almost all ESC's (Electronic Speed Control) want to see an idle signal from the rx before they will arm for safety reasons. You might just need to run the trim a little to get to that point.

I've heard Futaba throttle channel output is opposite most tx's, so for electric planes you may need to reverse that channel. You can find out by (after removing propeller!) powering on the tx with throttle stick down, then the plane. If you don't hear arming tones from the motor, run the throttle stick all the way up and see if it arms. Even run the throttle trim up. If it arms with the stick up, you need to reverse the throttle channel.

As for binding your Spektrum system, is your tx the old Dx7, or the fancy newer version Dx7 that talks to you? (Can't believe they gave them the same name!) And what rx is it? Spektrum has gone through several forms of transmitting over the years, DSM, DSM2, DSMX. Have to make sure they are both speaking the same language.

Another thing for Spektrum, if the tx and rx are too close when binding, or if you're doing it on a metal surface, this could mess up the bind process. Try having the tx farther away, like 6 feet, when binding.

Hope something here helps. Good luck!

fhhuber

Also binding can be messed up by being too close to your computer's WiFi hub or a computer with 2.4 ghz wireless keyboard/mouse/etc...

Just be in a different room from that stuff.

dahawk

+1 on xmech's advice. I have both Futaba and Spektrum. Futaba throttle is also channel 3 and it almost always needs reversing. Spektrum of course uses channel 1 and I've never had to reverse throttle for my talking DX9.

What I find most of the time when getting the rx and esc to talk to each other is that I that have better luck when lowering throttle trim.

Keep experimenting and you'll have that " ah a" moment

Ciao,

Hawk

morelli9ld

I'm too stupid to understand this.






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coque samsung galaxy s6 etui samsung galaxy s6

Rugar

No your not. When you don't understand something, just ask. Thats what this board is for.

fhhuber

10 min of in person assistance is often better than weeks of reading on the forums....

scottnp

First of all, sold the Futaba tx, stored the DX7, bought a DX6 and practice with my DX4e.

Next a series of events have me temporarily grounded, I crashed my Apprentice; minor damage. Expert flyer crashed the Apprentice after total control when wacko. After some patchup repairs then an experienced flyer crashed the Apprentice when it decided to do a death spiral onto the asphalt. Ordered new motor, new esc, motor mounts, cowling (all OEM parts) and glued the fuselage back together. Bench check revealed the original rx that may be the source of my problems. Now have a Spektrum rx installed but weather and wife are preventing another test hop (or crash). This hobby has gotten out of control, my hanger now includes: Apprentice 15S, Hobbyzone Super Cub, Dynam Skytrainer, Dynam Grand Cruiser, Dynam 1200mm Spitfire, Air Field 1250mm Corsair, Dynam 1500mm Me 262 and a Walmart Air Hog glider I plan to convert to electric RC. All this and I still haven't made a successful solo. Someone better restrain me or have an intervention before my wife leaves and I start wearing a flight suit.

Bub Steve

Yeppers,, You got it Bad
bubsteve