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Honeybee King 2 HELP!!!

Old 12-22-2008, 06:51 AM
  #1  
ottoblotto
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Default Honeybee King 2 HELP!!!

Ok so I have a big dilemma. Myself and two other guys I work with bought honeybee king 2s. All of them were setup and we all went through good preflight checks on everything. But all of us are having the problem with the tail spin. One of them you pull to the left until she gets light on the skids, then she starts to jam in circles the opposite direction. On another guy his just spins no matter what. He can pull full right pedal and she still goes spinning like crazy. Mine is not as bad, but she still requires a lot of input to keep the tail from spinning. I have to constantly pull right and that keeps the nose straight. So we have all gone through all the forums and tried all the different things that have been suggested. From the servo movement fore to aft to ensure 90degree, we have checked the belts and the tail rotor spins in the right direction, we have checked and replaced gyros, we have them set on normal then reverse, we have checked the tension on the belt, ect ect ect I am at my wits end. We cant figure out what is going on and since we are currently deployed in iraq, we cant go down to the lhs and have them look at them. So I am desperately asking for someones help on something else that we may have overlooked or maybe we have collectively gathered the wrong information. Any help would be greatly appreciated and advice given will be implemented. Thanks in advance for reading all this and trying to help us out.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:43 AM
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Otto-

I hate to have to be the one who says this.. Anyhoo..

The King 2 has some issues with the tail. Partly it's the belt drive system not spinning the tail fast enough, partly it's too small of tail rotor blades and possibly even the poor performance of the rate gyro that comes with the K2. Or it's a mish-mash of all the above.

There is a 43 tooth belt drive upgrade from Xtreme Productions for the king, also some are using T-Rex 450 'batwing' tail rotor blades. Others have upgraded from low end gyros to Futaba 401's with digital servos.

Likely that isn't what you fellow wanted to hear but it's all I have to offer.

Otherwise I'd check that the belt has not come off one of the roller guides. (Seen that happen) and of course make sure nothing is binding in the head or the tail box.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:57 PM
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thanks for the info. we will check it out when we are done working later. thanks!
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:23 PM
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Hey ottoblotto,

I got an all expense paid trip down there in the early 90's....

Ok, so if I understand you've got three HBK2's that you can't get working? Yes, the HBK2 does have some tail issues, but if you're just wanting to hover, we should be able to get 'em flying.

It sounds like you're all new at it, so hopefully its something simple. I'm at work now, but in about four or five hours I'll be online with my HBK2 and digital camera and we'll figure it out.

Are all of your setups stock?
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:44 AM
  #5  
ottoblotto
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theres four of us that have them now, one got his yesterday as i was writing this. but three are stock, one is modded with cnc head/tail and brushless motor, stock everything else.
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:01 AM
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Hey Guys

Well, I'm not sure where to start. You said you've checked the rotation of the main and tail blades are in the right direction? If you look down on the top of the heli the main blades spin clockwise. If you look at the right hand side of the heli the tail blade spins counter-clockwise.

Have you moved the position of the tail servo on the tail boom? Set your tail (rudder) trim to neutral. The idea is to move the position of the servo mounted on the tail boom forward or backward in very small amounts to mechanically get the correct pitch on the tail blades so the heli won't spin.

That's a good place to start. As the battery voltage drops throughout the flight, the tail will start trying to swing out just a little bit, but certainly not much.

You really shouldn't have to lift the heli off the ground to tell which way the tail wants to go. I can't remember which way is which, but loosen the screws that clamp the tail boom on the servo mount, and move the servo a tiny bit (1/32 or 1/16 of an inch) and try again. It'll pull to one side more, or less - you get the idea.

Let me know how its going. I'll be here for a bit
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:09 AM
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Ok, I just had another think.

When you spool up the heli always stand directly behind it. Bring the motor speed up very slowly, and give the tail commands so it stays pointing towards you at all times.

When the motor speed changes rapidly, the tail will swing one direction or another for a moment - this is normal for a NON-heading lock gyro. So when you're trying to get the tail right, try not to make sudden changes in throttle.

Just bring the motor up slowly to almost flying speed (light on the skids). A smooth surface helps. Make note of whether it takes right or left rudder to keep the tail straight back towards you, then adjust mechanically.....

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Old 12-23-2008, 04:12 AM
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A reduction in pitch on the main blades might help by taking some "bite" out at lower head/tail speeds. I know this helped on my axe cp...
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:28 AM
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Excellent point. Changing the head speed (speed of the main motor and blades) while in a hover will change the tail trim.

You'll see a couple of dial knobs on your stock transmitters. Set those somewhere near the middle and leave them alone for now. These are for making adjustments to the motor speed and main blade pitch whilst in a hover. If you're trying to lock in the tail, and make adjustments to the knobs, it may knock your tail out some.

Good luck and let us know how its going....
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Old 12-23-2008, 04:49 AM
  #10  
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Ok, another rookie mistake I've made.

When you get ready to fly......

1. Power up the transmitter.
2. Set the heli and get the battery strapped on, then plug in the battery and don't move the heli at all for several seconds. The gyro will initialize itself at power up. If you wiggle (even just a tiny bit), then the gyro won't initialize properly and act weird.
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Old 12-23-2008, 06:52 AM
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ottoblotto
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Default thanks for the info. im glad to report that it worked. the only issue i have know is

Originally Posted by rcflyair View Post
Hey Guys

Well, I'm not sure where to start. You said you've checked the rotation of the main and tail blades are in the right direction? If you look down on the top of the heli the main blades spin clockwise. If you look at the right hand side of the heli the tail blade spins counter-clockwise.

Have you moved the position of the tail servo on the tail boom? Set your tail (rudder) trim to neutral. The idea is to move the position of the servo mounted on the tail boom forward or backward in very small amounts to mechanically get the correct pitch on the tail blades so the heli won't spin.

That's a good place to start. As the battery voltage drops throughout the flight, the tail will start trying to swing out just a little bit, but certainly not much.

You really shouldn't have to lift the heli off the ground to tell which way the tail wants to go. I can't remember which way is which, but loosen the screws that clamp the tail boom on the servo mount, and move the servo a tiny bit (1/32 or 1/16 of an inch) and try again. It'll pull to one side more, or less - you get the idea.

Let me know how its going. I'll be here for a bit

so where should the slider on the tail rotor be at? 2/3 out or 1/3 in? or should it be centered? we all have diffrent setups and see dif results. i have mine 1/3 in but have to give constant right rudder to keep her from spinning. suggestions? any pics?

Last edited by ottoblotto; 12-23-2008 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:54 PM
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.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:10 AM
  #13  
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Default HBK2 Tail problem

Glad to see I am not alone wrestling with yaw control on the HBK2. I bought mine used with BL motor, HL Gyro and CNC head and tail assemblies.

Smooth running bird but has a nasty tendancy to spin to the left. With gyro disable to eliminate it as a variable, I found that I had to push the trims and control stick almost all the way to the limit just to get it to stop spinning to the left. I also confirmed that the servo was properly adjusted and that full movement of the stick was translating to full range of pitch control on the tail. (All I accomplished by moving the servo was to have the servo bind when pressing for more right thrust.)

Reducing pitch of main rotor (left knob all the way counterclockwise and right knob cloockwise helped because it reduced pitch and increased main and tail rotor speed but the tail still does not have much authority. (On mine, I also had to reduce the pitch adjustment links on the head to get it to fly.)

Based on seeing other posts, I have come to the conclusion that the tail rotor is underpowered which would also make it near impossible for a HL gyro to work correcty.

Two recurring suggestions on how to solve the problem:

1. Upgrade to 43 tooth pulley and special belt

2. Upgrade rear tail rotor blades to Trex 450 blades


If anyone has tried either approach, please advise.


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Old 01-25-2009, 12:20 AM
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43 tooth upgrade is a must. Tail authority is way lacking on the King. Bigger tail blades puts more stress on the very small assembly used on the King.

I installed the 43T upgrade on my King. It was a heck of a job as you have to split the frame or expect to spend a week trying to install the new belt guide bearings/pulleys.

Sounds like it has pretty much all the other bling you could expect.
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Old 01-25-2009, 04:54 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by Twmaster View Post
43 tooth upgrade is a must. Tail authority is way lacking on the King. Bigger tail blades puts more stress on the very small assembly used on the King.

I installed the 43T upgrade on my King. It was a heck of a job as you have to split the frame or expect to spend a week trying to install the new belt guide bearings/pulleys.

Sounds like it has pretty much all the other bling you could expect.
3Q

1. Please advise best source for 43 tooth pulley upgrade

2. Does HBK V3 have upgraded pulley or does it have same issue?

3. Why do you think some people don't have any trouble with stock config? (Is it just about keeping head speed suficiently high?)


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Old 01-25-2009, 06:23 PM
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one more observation.

On my upgraded HBKV2 with CNC tail, there was more pitch avaiable to push the tail left than right which does not make a lot of sense because you need to overcome torque of the main rotor.

By reversing the direction o the tail rotor I was able to take advantage of the extra pitch and that coupled with higher main rotor speed has produced a flyable heli.

(My heli was originally set up with main rotor spinning clockwise when viewed from the top and tail rotor spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from the right side of the heli. After the mod, the tail rotor is spinning clockwise viewed from right side of heli and the servo pulls forward on the control rod to increase pitch to push the tail clockwise when viewed from the top of heli.)

To reverse:

1. Twist belt 1/2 turn (reverses direction)
2. Change directin of blades
3. Reverse rudder channel on transmitter
4. Check throw limits and adjust servo as necessary

An alternative mod without reversing direction of rear rotor would be to increase the pitch of the tail rotor by extending the length of the two couplings that attach to the rear blade grip. (.050 spacer and longer screws would probably do the trick if I cannot find longer couplers)

However, it seems very odd that the manufacturer of the CNC parts would set up more pitch in the wrong direction so I am left wondering if part of the problem was that my tail rotor was spinning the wrong direction.



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Old 01-25-2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cbatters View Post
3Q

1. Please advise best source for 43 tooth pulley upgrade

2. Does HBK V3 have upgraded pulley or does it have same issue?

3. Why do you think some people don't have any trouble with stock config? (Is it just about keeping head speed suficiently high?)
A1. Heli-Direct, K-A and other vendors stock this. It's made by Xtreme Productions. Cost is $15-18.

A2. I don't know. Only ever saw one reference to anybody flying the K3

A3. Head speed is important. I suspect some people have issues with tail authority but are inexperienced enough to know that is a problem.

Originally Posted by cbatters View Post
one more observation.

On my upgraded HBKV2 with CNC tail, there was more pitch avaiable to push the tail left than right which does not make a lot of sense because you need to overcome torque of the main rotor.

By reversing the direction o the tail rotor I was able to take advantage of the extra pitch and that coupled with higher main rotor speed has produced a flyable heli.

(My heli was originally set up with main rotor spinning clockwise when viewed from the top and tail rotor spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from the right side of the heli. After the mod, the tail rotor is spinning clockwise viewed from right side of heli and the servo pulls forward on the control rod to increase pitch to push the tail clockwise when viewed from the top of heli.)

To reverse:

1. Twist belt 1/2 turn (reverses direction)
2. Change directin of blades
3. Reverse rudder channel on transmitter
4. Check throw limits and adjust servo as necessary

An alternative mod without reversing direction of rear rotor would be to increase the pitch of the tail rotor by extending the length of the two couplings that attach to the rear blade grip. (.050 spacer and longer screws would probably do the trick if I cannot find longer couplers)

However, it seems very odd that the manufacturer of the CNC parts would set up more pitch in the wrong direction so I am left wondering if part of the problem was that my tail rotor was spinning the wrong direction.
The tail rotor is always supposed to swing up into the rotor wash. In other words like your heli was set up new. When viewed from the right the tail rotor spins counter clockwise with the blades moving up into the wash.

I do not know why that is but I've read that in numerous threads on other boards. This is not HBK2 specific and applies to all helis somehow.

I suspect the CNC parts you have are not made correctly. There is much discussion on the K2 thread on RCG and Heli-Freak about poor quality and poor performing alloy parts for the thing on the market these days.
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:27 PM
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Appreciate your information and knowledge.

I knew I needed more pitch to drive the tail to the left (clockwise) so I reversed direction but it is now obvious that I need to find longer spacers to offset the pitch of the tail and get it spinning the correct direction. (Although it hovers reasonably well - however, spinning rear rotor clockwise increases the weight of the tail but spinning counterclockwise would tend to decrease the weight of the tail.)

Summary:

1. Main rotor/tailrotor speed is critical for proper yaw control. (Adjust pitch so heli does not attempt to lift until stick is past center location)

2. Pitch of tail rotor is critial. Make sure you have more pitch available when stick is moved to full right position. (With servo and control stick centered, there should be enough pitch to provide force to hold tail in place.)

3. Hover and pitch trim knobs also affect how much pitch/lift is generated based on the position of the throttle stick. Description below was borrowed from RC Universe. Still trying to get my head around how these controls interact.

4. Also posted links to manual. Documentation that came with my HBK2 was truly awful.
I'll try to see if I can make it clearer for you starting with the basics on what a pitch curve is.

I'm sure you know what "pitch" is so we'll go from there. CCPM heli's mix pitch and throttle curves so that when you move the throttle stick the pitch also changes. In normal mode the pitch will increase as you increase throttle. If both the knobs are set at zero and you've set the pitch correctly in idle up mode such that you have 0 pitch at mid stick, then you should have a linear pitch curve (line) from -1 to +7. This means that at bottom stick (0 throttle) you have have -1 pitch on the main blades and at top stick (100 throttle) you have have +7 pitch. This knob is mainly used as a pitch trim (regardless of the name) so that if you can't get 0 degress of pitch at mid stick in idle up you can use this knob to move the pitch curve so that it is exactly 0.

Now the hover pitch knob will move the entire pitch line up and down so I'll give you some examples (not the actual pitch settings). So in normal mode and hover pitch set at 0, you have -1 pitch (bottom stick), +3 pitch (mid stick) and +7 pitch (top stick), if you turn the knob clockwise (to the 3 oclock position) you'll make the pitch settings +1 (bottom), +5 (mid) and +9 (top). If you turn the knob counter clockwise to the 9 oclock position you have -3 (bottom), +1 (mid), +5 (top).

In effect you've changed the pitch of the main blades at the different throttle positions.

Now to the pitch trim knob, this knob adds a curve to what was previously a straight line. This may be done for various reasons but mostly it's so that you can allow the rotor rpms to increase faster than the pitch a low throttle (this allows for better tail control). You can also use the hover trim knob to do this but since it changes the low and high pitch settings you may not like that. For instance, if you increase the hover trim setting you'll probably bog down the motor by adding too much pitch when you don't have enough rpms. So turn the pitch trim knob clockwise and you'll end up with a curve with the start point at -1 (assuming the hover trim knob is set at 0) and the end point at +7 but there is now a curve to the line which would be below the straight pitch line. What this means is that as you increase the throttle (which is linear) the pitch won't increase at the same rate as the curve starts out fairly horizontal, it will increase slowly then faster and faster as the curve of the line starts to get more vertical (see picture below, the dashed line below the straight line).

Now you can combine the two in order to change the entire pitch curve (except to make the range bigger, this is a function of how far out on the servo arm the link is attached, the farther out on the link the larger the range).



[media]http://image2-2.rcuniverse.com/e1/forum/upfiles/364395/Om32942.jpg[/media]

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_69...tm.htm#7010424
I've noticed there are a lot of posts lately on what does this switch or knob do? And a few accidents from those that tried to fly without finding what all the switches and knobs do....

So I thought a post on what everything on the transmitter does was in order.

First here is the manual. This manual covers all the fm transmitters that Esky currently sells so it pertains to the Lama V3/V4 right up to the Belt CP.

I'm going to try and give a short tutorial here on what everything on the transmitter does. I'm not going to cover the power button though cause if you can't find it then you should give up right now

Sticks: These are the parts that controls the flight of the helicopter, from throttle to directional movement.

Left Stick: Up/Down controls the throttle and pitch, because this is a preprogramed ccpm transmitter the two are linked and there are few options on changing them. The biggest factor is that you cannot use servos that turn in the opposite direction from the stock esky servos. So no hitec servos if using the stock transmitter. Servos that work are
Futaba, Tower Hobby SG90... etc.

Left Stick: Left/Right controls the rudder or yaw. This is basically the rotation of the heli, most common is that you control the nose so if you push the stick right the nose turns to the right.

Right Stick: Up/Down controls the elevator. This is the forward and backward movement of the helicopter (and swashplate)


Right Stick: Left/Right controls the aileron. This is the side to side movement of the helicopter (and swashplate)

Trim Tabs: The little tabs to the inside and under the sticks are the trims.
You can use these to make small adjustments to the servo positions in order to correct for good flight. I.E. if your heli is flying slightly to the left and keeps wanting to such that you have to put constant right aileron to compensate for it then move the tab under the right stick to the right until it stops. If the trim is all the way to the right and you're still drifting left then you'll have to go back and fix the mechanical set up. While I'm not going to cover the mechanical set up in this thread I will state that mechanical set up is paramount, with correct mechanical set up the trims should be at, or very close to, center.
Note: the rudder trim must be centered in order for the heli to initialize.

Servo Direction: There are flat switches at the bottom right face of the transmitter.
These change the direction of the individual servos, we have found that there are quite a few stock configurations but your transmitter should come with the tabs in the correct positions. You should always check that the swashplate does the correct movement for the stick inputs (please disconnect the motor from the
esc before testing).

GW SW: The is in the top left on the face of the transmitter.
This controls the mode the
gyro is in, either head holding (HH) or Rate. Since the stock gyro is rate only it doesn't really matter what position the switch is in. Even if you have a HH model the switch sets the gain value which most have found is too low. The suggestion is that you don't plug the single wire into the receiver and change the gain on the gyro manually.

Idle Up/ 3D Switch: This switch is at the top left of the transmitter and should be labelled "idle".
The switch changes the throttle curve from a straight line in normal mode (linear from 0 to 100 throttle) to a "V" shape, 100% at top stick, 50% at mid stick then 100% at bottom stick. This in combination with the pitch curve allows you to do many 3D maneuvers and fly inverted. DO NOT TOUCH this switch until you're ready to (can hover in all orienations, fast forward flight and figure 8s).

Trainer Switch: This switch is at the top right of the transmitter.
The trainer switch is used when you have a second transmitter connected to the main transmitter and can take control of the heli while the switch is held in the down position (it must me held). Standard practice is to have the more experienced person with the main transmitter and the beginner with the second one, this gives the experienced pilot with the ability to take control when he deems necessary (prevents surprising him too).

Hover Pitch Knob: This knob is at the top left of the transmitter, just in front of the Idle Up switch.
The pitch curve on the heli is linear from -1 to +7 (they can vary a bit). The knob moves the pitch curve (line really) up and down such that increasing the pitch curve will change the range to an example of +1 to +9, notice that the range stays the same (8 deg). As you can see this has the effect of increasing the pitch for a given throttle point, if you think you need more throttle because the pitch of the blades is bogging your motor then decrease the Hover Pitch.
Note: the Hover Pitch knob will affect both normal and idle up modes.

Pitch Trim Knob: This knob is at the top right of the transmitter, right in front of the trainer switch.
This knob changes the curve of the pitch curve but not the start or end points, you can put a curve such that you have less pitch response at low throttle and it increases as you move the throttle stick up (the pitch curve would look like the right side of a bowl). You can also make the pitch more sensitive at low throttle and less so at the top.
Note: the Pitch Trim knob only affects the pitch in normal mode.

As you can see, by using a combination of the Hover Pitch and Pitch Trim knobs you can change both the start and end points as well as the curve of the pitch curve so while you can't pick specific points on a pitch curve you can choose the end points (with the limit that the range is the same) and either put an upward or downward curve to it.

If there is anything that I've missed, please feel free to add your comments.

NOW INCLUDES BELT CP
MANUAL, this is the good one.

Links to manuals.

http://www.rc711.com/shop/pub/manual...n%20Manual.pdf

http://www.twf-sz.com/english/downlo...ual/Beltcp.pdf
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