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what else, with a plane purchase.

Old 12-13-2010, 06:14 PM
  #1  
Jzone99
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Default what else, with a plane purchase.

What else should one buy besides the needed components.

Example. I am buying a night vapor, I assumed to get extra batteries and props. What else? Glue, tail wings, since it might break. The tail wing kits for the champ (foam) are sold out on Horizon, that tells you something?

Glue, what kind?
The vapor is not foam. regular CA
What glue if the plan was foam? CA foam safe?
Do I need an activator?

How do i determine what type of battery to buy when looking at the specs, what variations am I allowed within each of these specification types.
X Volts? If the volts say 3.7, it must stay that way?
X mAh? This number seems to vary
X C So does this one

I would imagine that it would depend on what the motor, esc, receiver and servos would draw, this depends on the plane. I guess that is why BNFs, Plug and play's and RTF are popular, they figured it out already.
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:56 PM
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I suggest you do some searches. There is SO much to learn, I'd have to write a book. One thing- buy a wattmeter. It will tell you how much power your motor is using. Changing props will vary this and you'll be able to tune your setup.
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:26 PM
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I have a voltmeter. Thanks. I was not thinking about changing the props just getting spares. The battery on the other hand, it seems like I have a few optiond for the: champ, vapor, and ember and other BNF's, RTF's. I see that they sell other spare parts, like a gear box, is that common thing to break. I have been reading many threads, over the 2 months.

Last edited by Jzone99; 12-13-2010 at 08:29 PM. Reason: grammar, spelling
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:01 PM
  #4  
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I had a gearbox, but didn't put many hours on it b4 moving up to brushless direct drive so I really can't comment on that. Watts (as in wattmeter) is volts times amps. Such a meter gives both figures and is much more valuable than just a voltmeter. You adjust your powertrain by varying the propeller. This changes the draw on your battery. The wattmeter lets u know exactly what u are doing, what size battery u need, how long it'll last.
Study up on Lipos. 3.7v is the rated size but they are up to 4.2v when fully charged. Set your ESC cutoff at 3.0v. See what I mean? I need to write.......well a lot more than I want. Its all here in WattFlyer already. Just find it. GET A LIPO SPECIFIC CHARGER!
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Old 12-15-2010, 03:59 AM
  #5  
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Wow, I thought they were the same thing, I know what watts are, I remember calculating the the circuit loads in my house, hence the the Jerks that redid my my wifes bathroom (before I met her) but a 20amp GFI outlet on a 15 amp Breaker (some where behind the new walls they pigtailed to aluminium) now when she blow drys here hair the break pops at the panel and not the outlet. I tell her to use it on low, on high it uses 1875 watts+ and a 15 amp breaker is only qualified/safe under about 1500 watts.
Anyway.....what does a watt meter look like?
I have two meters, they measure Voltage DC and AC, A-DC (amps?), Batteries 1.5 and 9V resistance (or Ohms) and continuity. I assumed if one wanted to measure wattage you had to do some simple math like suggested above. Post a link as to what they look like to buy. They should offer adult education classes for RC flying. I actually could use some professional development for my job.
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:47 AM
  #6  
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http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...dProduct=10786

This is the Wattmeter I use, and it's quite a good one. Here's a video that explains what it does: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1k5ouQHMgc[/media]

Sorry for looking like I'm advertising hobbyking, but it's just the one I use...

The reason for using hobby style wattmeters, is that they're designed to measure high amp loads... standard digital multimeters can measure amps (which is really the most important reading you get from a wattmeter), but they can only generally measure up to about 10A. Hobby wattmeters generally measure up to ~100A or so. Typical parkflyers often draw in the range of ~20A or so, so you can't measure their current draw with a standard multimeter without adding a little bit of extra circuitry and doing some math...

The above wattmeter also has a battery checker and balancer... so you can see how much you've used out of a battery, and the reading of each cell, which is extremely convenient. I highly recommend it.

One IMPORTANT note with the above wattmeter: The internal balancer's negative pin is directly internally connected to the imput side's negative lead! This isn't a probem per se, but it did cause me to do something VERY stupid with mine when I got it...

Due to the way the balancing connector is laid out, it is possible to plug the balance lead in both the correct way, and upside down. When I got mine, the pins were a little too low to easily plug it in the correct way, so I plugged it in upside down by mistake. This was OK, as it has reverse polarity protection on the balancing circuit. However, I then connected the main battery leads to the wattmeter's imput, thinking that both had to be connected for it to operate... POW! I'd effectively just short circuited the lipo though its balance lead, which melted the connector slightly and made a nice spark... Fortunately though, the current was flowing through a direct track inside the wattmeter, ie not going through any actual electronic components. I disconnected it instantly so there was no actual damage, but just be careful when plugging that balance lead in if you also have the battery connected to the main leads... There is a little negative symbol above the balance plug which shows which way to plug in the battery, so make sure you abide by it. You do not need to connect the battery's main leads to use the balancer of this meter, it will draw power through the balance leads.
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:31 PM
  #7  
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Cool video! I now know that I will stay stock forever and ever. I'm a fairly intelligent guy but that is waaaay too much for me to worry about! I am most impressed by you folks that can get all of this together and figure out what you need/want for your a/c!!

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Old 12-17-2010, 12:59 AM
  #8  
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Haha, it's not as bad as you think. I thought the exact same thing, but decided to do a scratchbuild and had the people here help me out in selecting some components. Once you actually have a few different motors and props in your hands you start to get a feel for how things behave, wheras prior to that it's all numbers on a webpage.

It doesn't look like anyone answered your question on battery selection, so I'll explain it here as best as I can...

The first specification you look at with LiPo batteries, is the cell count. Each cell in a LiPo battery has a voltage of 3.7V nominal. Fully charged, this peaks at no higher than 4.20 volts, and fully discharged is somewhere around 3.0 volts under load. You don't want to drain them any lower than this, and it is in fact preferable to not drain them this low in the first place.

When battery voltages are written, it is the nominal voltage of 3.7V per cell that they use. Therefore, a 3.7 volt battery will have one cell (for now, we are ignoring the possibility of mulitple cells wired in parallel). A 7.4V battery will have 2 cells in series, and an 11.1V battery will have 3 cells in series etc... This is often written as 2S, 3S etc (2S: two cells in series... 3S: 3 cells in series...)

So, how does the voltage of a battery affect your power system?

The first consideration, is whether your speed contol is even able to run on x number of cells. Most speed controllers are fine on cell counts from 2-4. Motor specifications also mention cells, but this is a bit misleading. The voltages we are dealing with are too low to be directly damaging to a brushless motor. However, they do affect the amp draw, which means you can't just throw any battery at any power system and expect it to work.

Basically, the voltage that is fed to a motor determines how fast it is going to 'try' to spin. Motors are rated in KV, or rpm/v. Ideally, a 1000kv motor will spin at 1000rpm when you feed it one volt, without any 'load' (IE no propellor). The amp draw when a motor is spinning at the speed it is trying to will be very low. However, the moment you start to put a load on the motor, it will no longer be able to spin as fast as it wants to. The slower you force it to spin, the more amps it is going to draw to try and maintain that speed. This is why larger props (more load) draw more amps than smaller props (less load).

Now, because the speed at which the motor wants to spin is directly related to the voltage, you can see why voltage will affect the amp draw. Let's suppose we take a power system that draws, say, 10 amps with a given prop on a 2 cell lipo. Suddenly, we swap the battery to a 3 cell lipo. Now, we have the same load on the motor (same prop) but suddenly the motor's 'target' speed is much higher, because of the higher voltage. This means that the amp draw is going to be a LOT higher than the 10 amps it used to be. If the motor and speed control can't handle the extra amps... something is going to burn. So what one would have to do, would be to swap the propeller with a smaller one, in order to reduce the amps to a manageable number.

While you may mix packs of different mah and C rating in the same plane, you don't do the same for cell counts... a power system designed for 2 cell use will probably burn up on 3 cells. A system designed for 3 cells will probably be very underpowered on 2 cells. Basically, you mess around with cell counts, motor specs and prop sizes when designing a power system, and once are happy with it you leave the cell count alone.

The bottom line is that if you are using a 7.4 volt LiPo now, you should just buy more 7.4 volt packs.

Ok, now that we've got voltage sorted, it's time to move on to mah and C ratings. Luckily these two are pretty closely related so it won't take as much writing this time.

Basically, mah is a measure of how much capacity is in a battery. It stands for milliamp-hours, or how many milliamps of current draw it will take to completely drain the pack in one hour. This means that a 1500mah battery pack will be able to supply exactly 1500 milliamps (1.5 amps) for exactly one hour, before it is exhausted. The mah rating does not directly change the performance of your power system... a 1500mah pack will perform the same as a 3000mah pack, and even a 6000mah pack won't hurt your plane's electronics. The difference between them is that higher capacity packs are bigger and heavier. Larger packs will, of course, provide more flight time.

The C rating is a measure of how fast you can drain the battery without damaging it. A 20C battery can sustain a current draw of 20 times its capacity. So for a 1000mah battery pack, a 20C discharge rate means 20 X 1000 milliamps, which equals 20,000 milliamps. This means the maximum discharge rate of a 1000mah, 20C battery is 20 amps.

From this you can see how mah affects the maximum current draw... if you have two batteries, both rated at 20C, one 500mah in capacity and one 1000mah in capacity... The 1000mah battery will be able to sustain double the maximum current of the 500mah pack. So while mah is otherwise unimportant, it is important to check that your battery can cope with the current draw, if you buy a pack with a lower mah or C rating than the stock battery. It is always OK to buy a pack with a higher mah rating or C rating, provided that it is not too physically big and heavy.

Choose a C rating that's a bit above what is absolutely neccessary. The higher the C rating, the better, but super high C ratings are only neccesary if you are drawing lots of amps from the battery. The only downside to high C ratings is that the cost of batteries goes up substantially.
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:01 PM
  #9  
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I read that twice, and understand most of it but will have to read it again. If I can conclude what you said then let me try.
If I want more flight time, I will buy a battery at the same voltage (say 3.7) but will increase the mAh (get more time) and moderately increase the C rating. This can be done as long as the battery fits and is not significantly heavier.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:14 AM
  #10  
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Oooh, so so close. You've got it all, except the C rating...

Suppose you have a battery that copes fine with the amp draw your pulling, and it's rated at say, 1000mah and 20C... (max allowable amp draw will be 20 x 1amp: 20amps)

And you decide that the plane can handle a heavier battery, and decide to replace it with a 1500mah battery. A 20C 1500mah will be perfect, as it will have a somewhat greater max discharge rate (1.5 x 20: 30amps) The only time you might need to increase your C rating, is when you are going to a lower capacity pack (as discharge current is related to capacity, in order to draw the same amps from a lower capacity pack you want it to be rated at a higher C), or when you put a more powerful power system in that is drawing more amps...

The thing with C is that it is never detrimental to go higher than you need, apart from the higher price. The C rating is determined by the internal resistance of the pack... lower internal resistance means less heat for a given amp draw, which means a higher max allowable amp draw. Higher C packs also tend to give slightly better performance, as they don't sag in voltage as much when under load.

So the bottom line is that if you have a pack that works, if you want more flight time you can just increase the mah and go with the same C rating. However, if it's a negligible cost difference for a slightly higher C rating, go for that as well. It's always better to use components that are able to do more than what you need, rather than pushing things to their limit.
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Old 12-18-2010, 04:07 AM
  #11  
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Cool, thanks Insomniac. Well, I'm looking at a Vapor purchase right now and was thinking about getting extra batteries. What is the difference between getting a battery with more mAh for possible longer flight time and just getting an extra battery. I'd say it's landing and swapping it. So, since I have no experience as to what is tolerable and preferable it might not matter. Some vendors are offering a free batteries that have a higher mAh like Horizon's offer.
It seems that the recommended battery for the vapor is a 70mAh 3.7V 14C Li-Po
The stock on that it comes with says ParkZone 3.7V 70mAh LiPo. No mention of C ratting on it.
The extra batteries from some vendors: 1. Tenergy 3.7V 130mAh No C rating (ebay)
2. Eflite 1S 3.7V 120mAh 14C (Horizon)
Others I was considering on my own:
3. 160mAh 1S 3.7V G4 Pro Lite 25C LiPo byThunder Power RC
4. 150mAh 1-Cell 3.7V 12C Li-Po by E-flite
5. 500mAh 1-Cell 3.7V 12C Li-Po: 120SR by E-flite

Now, since I'm starting off I'd be happy with 7 minutes without crashing. But Since learning has value. It would be interesting to know if this are all valid choices and another good question is would they be able to be charged by the one the stock charger the Vapor comes with? Will any hurt the ESC, motor, or itself?
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:32 AM
  #12  
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None will hurt the plane, as they're all single cell LiPo cells. I don't have the Vapour, so I can't comment on how large a battery it can carry, but the 500mah one sounds way too big. You'd probably be safest with the Eflite 1S 120mah cell, as it shouldn't be too much larger than the 70mah. Be aware that it's not just overall weight that matters, but the centre of gravity. If the battery is located right under the CG, it's just the plane's ability to lift the weight that matters. If the battery is foward or aft of the CG, a bigger or smaller battery can throw the balance off.

Provided they have the same connectors, and can physically connect with the charger, then they will charge fine. The 'normal' charge rate of a LiPo is 1C, which takes roughly an hour to charge. Charging a LiPo at a rate less than 1C is fine, it just takes longer. It's charging LiPos too fast that is a problem.

If we assume the stock charger is charging the 70mah cells at 1C, then going to a larger capacity pack will be fine, as the rate for them will be less than 1C (same current, but a different C rate as the capacities are different). It is only when putting smaller cells than intended on a charger that you have to worry about the charge rate.

These 1S LiPos ought to be fairly cheap, and they arn't going to damage any electronics, so feel free to order a couple of different ones and experiment. Though don't get the 500mah one, I'm almost certain it's way too large.

The reason for upgrading to a larger mah cell is really a question of 'why not?'. If I have a plane that easily carries 1300mah cells, then when I buy new batteries I may as well try some 1500mah cells in it... If the weight isn't going to noticeably affect the flight, then I should get a little more time in the air. Of course, when performance is the absolute goal, you'd go with smaller cells to cut back on weight.

It's never a good idea to use batteries that are too heavy; The plane won't handle as well, it will require more power to stay aloft (potentially negating any run time benefit), and will stall more easily. Deciding on the best balance between runtime and weight is really something that can only be answered with a bit of trial and error.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:46 PM
  #13  
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Good enough make sense,and I will stick with you advice, thanks so far. To bad where not neighbors. I'm sure I will be back for more questions on this or other topics.
What planes (in the trainer category) have you dealt with/owned.
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:00 AM
  #14  
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Well, the plane I learnt on was an Electrafun XP, and while it did the job, I can't say I really reccomend it. It was built tough which was great, but it was underpowered, with an outdated 380 brushed motor, 7 cell NICAD battery and a toy grade 27mhz radio. It had quite a thin wing as well, which meant that while it didn't have enough power to climb at any decent rate, it was still quite quick in level flight. They've since updated it a bit, but I still don't think it's the best plane to use.

The only other plane which I suppose could be classed as a trainer, is the plug-n-fly Decathlon from HobbyKing. It's an art-tech plane, which means it's made of beer cooler style foam. Which isn't supposed to be that durable, but we've had at least one major nose in and it's only suffered minor damage.

The battery box on this one was a little small, and the CG was a little off, so I modified it to fit the battery in a better spot. After this it flew great... plenty of power from the brushless motor, nice 4ch controls, stable, predictable and easy to land. I'm using one of hobbyking's cheap 6ch 2.4ghz radios in it.

Of course, before you try your first flights, simulator time is always a good option. FMS is a free sim, and Clearview (which I bought, and use) is a bit better and not particularly expensive (~$40 IIRC).
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:41 AM
  #15  
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I reckon one of the best accessories I have acquired to go with my plane yet is a simulator that can use my TX. That way when it's bucketing down with rain and blowing a gale outside I can practice, and it sort of helps take the edge off from not being able to go flying.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:58 PM
  #16  
AEAJR
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Originally Posted by Jzone99 View Post
What else should one buy besides the needed components.

Example. I am buying a night vapor, I assumed to get extra batteries and props. What else? Glue, tail wings, since it might break. The tail wing kits for the champ (foam) are sold out on Horizon, that tells you something?

Glue, what kind?
The vapor is not foam. regular CA
What glue if the plan was foam? CA foam safe?
Do I need an activator?

How do i determine what type of battery to buy when looking at the specs, what variations am I allowed within each of these specification types.
X Volts? If the volts say 3.7, it must stay that way?
X mAh? This number seems to vary
X C So does this one

I would imagine that it would depend on what the motor, esc, receiver and servos would draw, this depends on the plane. I guess that is why BNFs, Plug and play's and RTF are popular, they figured it out already.
I have a night vapro and I love it.

I would suggest a second battery but that is about it.

The plane is so light that even if you land it poorly it rarely takes damage. An extra prop might be a good idea.

Minor rips can be fixed with light weight tape, like scotch tape.

It won't take much wind, especially if you are a newbie. And watch out for those trees. They like to reach out and grab Vapros.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:12 PM
  #17  
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Here is a source for good info on vapors:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885905
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:30 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
I have a night vapro and I love it.

I would suggest a second battery but that is about it.

The plane is so light that even if you land it poorly it rarely takes damage. An extra prop might be a good idea.

Minor rips can be fixed with light weight tape, like scotch tape.

It won't take much wind, especially if you are a newbie. And watch out for those trees. They like to reach out and grab Vapros.
I agree with everything here. In fact, I'm still on my original prop and battery and haven't even had to patch any tears.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:54 AM
  #19  
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Well... I ordered two extra props (only six bucks), some Ca, two additional batteries (1 was free) and some skies. I would love to fly on a calm day after a fresh snow fall. I also wonder if the stock battery at 70mAh would be can be deceiving after getting used to the upgraded batteries at 120+ mAa.
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:58 AM
  #20  
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Sounds like you have all you need. 70 amp pack gives a long flight. No problem using it. When the Vapor no longer wants to climb at 3/4 throttle you are probably low on battery. I don't know that I have ever run it to a hard cut-off. May be a soft cutoff.

Last edited by AEAJR; 12-22-2010 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:03 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Jzone99 View Post
Well... I ordered two extra props (only six bucks), some Ca, two additional batteries (1 was free) and some skies. I would love to fly on a calm day after a fresh snow fall. I also wonder if the stock battery at 70mAh would be can be deceiving after getting used to the upgraded batteries at 120+ mAa.
How are you enjoying your Vapor?
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:33 AM
  #22  
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Default To windy

I have not been able to fly it at all, I did bind it, move the tail, rudder, and spun the prop. I also received a phoenix sim a few days ago and have been practicing. To bad they don't have a night vapor, ember or champ on it. Anyway, I am just realizing the only thing that seems to hurt your plane is the ground. That is obvious from a crash but even taxing is ruff. I've been practicing with engine failures and some wind conditions on the trainers and 3 channel electrics. The Corsair seem easy to fly but is to quick and easy to crash if that makes sense.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:55 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Jzone99 View Post
Anyway, I am just realizing the only thing that seems to hurt your plane is the ground.
Oh no! Trees and power poles will knock a plane silly! Don't ask me how I know...
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:32 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Oh no! Trees and power poles will knock a plane silly! Don't ask me how I know...
O-Snap! That's so true, I have hit them in the sim. Forgot
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:16 PM
  #25  
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Luckily, one of the coolest things you'll ever see is when you're testing your alleged depth perception (mine is proven really bad) and do run your Vapor into a tree or solid object, it will just bounce off (that wing spar is a great spring) and fly away. Don't try that with any other kind of a plane......like my Radian for instance.

It just stuck itself to the power pole like it was magnetized and rode it down to the ground for a little customization of the nose profile. Since then experimentation with the Vapor has proven to me that the only safe way to fly is in such a way that you don't depend at all on your depth perception.

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